On Sept. 24, Dialogue Vanderbilt and the Vanderbilt Policy Accelerator hosted U.S. Senator Josh Hawley (R-Mo.), a staunch critic of Big Tech, for a conversation with VPA director and Vanderbilt Law School professor Ganesh Sitaraman. The trio discussed the implications of Big Tech’s growth and the rapid rise of artificial intelligence.
The event was part of Dialogue Vanderbilt’s mission to encourage open expression across campus. About fifty students and faculty members attended the talk between Hawley, a staunch conservative, and Sitaraman, a democrat.
Chancellor Daniel Diermeier began the discussion by emphasizing the importance of engaging with divisive issues. He reminded the audience that universities are places for students to seek higher knowledge and grapple with difficult conversations that shape public life. Sitaraman then began the conversation by acknowledging the political divide between him and Hawley.
“Senator, we have very different political backgrounds,” Sitaraman said. “We don’t often see two people come from different sides, come together and actually agree.”
Sitaraman then discussed their shared belief that the unchecked growth of Big Tech poses serious risks. He asked Hawley to explain how he became concerned with Big Tech.
“I was just a law professor at the time, but that really started my engagement with the research and literature to find out how it is that companies make their money? What’s their model?” Hawley said. “As it turns out, their model is all about maximal engagement by any means necessary. They perfected it; they make truckloads of money off of you. And there’s a host of arms that come with that, but they very well know about it. As a parent, that’s what started me in it. And then becoming a policymaker, and seeing [the tech companies’] clear-eyed, sort of devil-may-care attitude really radicalized me.”
Hawley discussed how he believes Meta’s chat bots are programmed to engage in ‘sensual conversations’ with young children and that big tech firms often become monopolistic. He noted that Amazon views proprietary data from third-party sellers to ensure their Amazon Basics products undercut the sales of their competitors on the platform.
“Amazon is privy to all of the data. … So they know exactly what the margins are. They know what’s most profitable,” he said. “They’ve taken that data … and then undersell their competitors.”
Hawley said he is worried AI will replace entire job categories and erode creative industries by taking and training with copyrighted material without consent. To counter this, he plans to introduce legislation that will allow holders of copyright to sue AI firms for the unauthorized use of their work.
“What we need to do is set up guardrails around AI that will allow people to get good quality jobs [and] use the technology to help them in their work but not be replaced by it,” Hawley said.
He added that AI putting students prospective job opportunities at risk provides more reason to act quickly to counter the AI revolution in the marketplace and ensure the revolution is pro-worker and not pro-corporate.
Seeking solutions while faced with stagnation
Sitaraman then asked Hawley whether he believes Washington has learned anything from the failures in the legal system and the system of law enforcement that they can apply to the emergence of AI.
“No,” Hawley said — to which the audience laughed. “At least in my short experience there, I don’t think that we’ve learned the lessons that we should have on social media, and I’m just very worried about the trend in AI.”
Hawley recounted the Federal Trade Commission’s $5 billion fine against Meta in 2019 for harvesting user data without consent, noting that the penalty failed to change the company’s behavior.
“[Meta] just does not care,” Hawley said. “We’ve got to find a way to make them care and to make them internalize the costs that they are currently externalizing and imposing on the American people, particularly on American children.”
Hawley discussed his “Trust-Busting for the Twenty-first Century Act” as a solution to this type of company behavior, which would stop companies from both running a marketplace and competing in it.
“Right now, if you look across the American economy, we’re seeing in sector after sector, almost unprecedented levels of [market] concentration,” Hawley said. “It’s a dramatic concentration of a kind that we have not seen, really since the Gilman Age, since the late 1800s, early 1900s.”
Looking forward: Students and the future
Sitaraman then opened the floor for a Q&A session.
First-year Zach Mackaskill-Smith asked Hawley how someone like himself, with interests in math and computer science, can get involved in the issues surrounding big tech and AI to make a difference.
“We need people like you,” Hawley said. “Your skill will be so critically important. We’ve got to recommit ourselves to some fundamental things that we believe in together, like how people matter more than machines. Children should be protected; workers are to be protected and valued. What you’ll bring to that as an engineer with your skills would be incredible.”
First-year Rishi Jani asked how regular people could sue Big Tech without being buried by legal fees and how Hawley would work with the White House to enforce any new rules. Jani also expressed his appreciation that both speakers found common ground and discussed issues that affect both republicans and democrats.
“If the little guy went against big tech, big tech has to pay all of his attorney’s fees,” Hawley said. “[Tech companies] have begged Trump to stop the current antitrust suits that are progressing against their companies. DOJ has plowed right ahead, which is fantastic. And I hope they continue to do so.”
Dialogue Vanderbilt faculty director Sarah Igo said the conversations from the event reflected the kind of engagement the initiative aims to create.
“The undergrads in attendance were incredibly well-informed on the issues and asked terrific questions. It’s safe to say that they impressed the Senator with their seriousness and smarts,” Igo said. “Whatever the issue, this is the quality of conversation that Dialogue Vanderbilt hopes to facilitate on campus.”
